Meet the Expert Redefining Leadership ROI
Jennifer Dawn: Hey, hey everybody. Welcome to a new episode of the Happy Productive Podcast. I have to tell you guys, I am really stoked for my guest today because A, aside from being a fabulous, amazing female she’s also a good friend of mine, and we got to go on one of our retreat cruises last year to the Caribbean. I think we went to the Caribbean Michelle?
Michelle Johnston: That’s right.
Jennifer Dawn: Oh my God. And we had. So much fun on this cruise, you guys together, and so we have not connected since the cruise, so I’m so excited to be on the show today. So welcome, welcome, welcome, Ms. Michelle Johnston. Welcome to the show.
Michelle Johnston: Oh, thank you so much, Jennifer. And yeah, I would imagine for all of your listeners tuning in, I know why you’re tuning in. ’cause I fell in love with Jennifer on this cruise. All I knew it was a, it was a business cruise. And I show up and we’re in a, in a conference room on a cruise ship, which I didn’t know was possible or that they had. And let me tell you, I learned so much. Jennifer is just really quite an amazing coach, as you all know, so I’m so happy to be here.
Jennifer Dawn: Oh, and I’m so happy to see you. We, we did, we had such a good time on the cruise. And you guys Michelle is just absolutely amazing. Okay. She’s a leadership professor. She’s the author of a bestselling book, The Seismic Shift in Leadership. And yes, maybe you’ve guessed our topic today is gonna be leadership, which I think is such an important topic, especially, excuse me, with everything going on in the world today. She’s also the host of the Seismic Shift podcast and a keynote speaker, you guys, she’s a little bit of everything and she’s on a mission to help leaders build connection that drives results, results, results. She’s been named a top 10 executive coach. She’s been Woman of the year come on you guys. And she’s been featured in Forbes four times, so there’s really no surprise as to why she’s one of my favorite people in the world. Michelle.
Michelle Johnston: Jennifer.
The Seismic Shift in Leadership: A New Mandate for Corporate Culture
Jennifer Dawn: I can’t wait to dive in. Let’s talk about leadership, and I love your spin on this with the seismic shift. So can you just dive in just talk to us a little bit about what is the **seismic shift in leadership**?
Michelle Johnston: Absolutely. So as an executive coach, I was working with a lot of leaders who typically would be called kind of jerk. Bosses, right? They were authoritarian command and control. And so much of my work was helping people around them figure out how to tolerate that behavior.
Michelle Johnston: And the seismic shift came when I realized that those personalities and those leadership styles were getting pushed out of organizations. And then the leaders who were getting promoted were much more relationship. Connection based and, and I just had this lightning bolt moment I thought, and I really had no intention of writing a book. I said, I have to, I have to write a book to get this out. Hallelujah. There’s a **seismic shift in leadership** happening and no more jerk bosses.
The High Cost of “Jerk Bosses”: Why Authoritarian Leadership Is Now a Liability
Jennifer Dawn: Oh, I love that. I’m curious what you’re seeing. And I’m, I, I have a no politics, no religion policy. However, in today’s political climate where I think we’re seeing, we’re seeing a lot of really yucky stuff happening right now. And where I would say it’s less relationship based, more just here’s what I feel like doing today based. And more of a jerk boss. I’m gonna say in our pol political government. A lot of jerks going on around in there. Would you say that like in in in businesses and corporations, do you still see a trend towards more relationship?
Michelle Johnston: Absolutely.
Jennifer Dawn: Even though we’re not necessarily seeing that in our government.
Michelle Johnston: Correct. And, and yeah, without talking about politics, you’re absolutely right. We’re, we’re seeing one way. And yet what I’m seeing in corporate America at least is just a, an absolute no, a-hole policy. And it’s not okay to treat people like that. And look, when the great resignation happened during COVID. That was really the great reevaluation, the great reprioritization, and what people were leaving is they were leaving bad bosses and they were leaving organizations that they didn’t feel valued and they didn’t find passion in their, in their purpose.
Michelle Johnston: And they left. And that was the, a big shift. And that happened right after I wrote my book. That was a big shift where the employees actually had more power than ever before. It was always the leaders could get away with that kind of jerky behavior because the employees didn’t have the power. But all of a sudden, employees found their voices and said, no, I wanna be seen as a real person. I actually want to be valued. I, I, I wanna be seen as somebody who’s not just. A cog in the wheel or a number on the bottom line, but I’m a full person who really wants to make a contribution. So that, that was a huge seismic shift as well. So the hallelujah, no, I’m not seeing, at least in the organizations that I work in, I’m not seeing reverting back to old school Jerk boss behavior. This seismic shift in leadership is here to stay.
Boosting Your Bottom Line: The Link Between Leadership and Talent Retention
Jennifer Dawn: Oh, that’s so good. ’cause who wants a jerk boss?
Michelle Johnston: No.
Jennifer Dawn: And truly, and I can say from all of the clients, ’cause we’re coaching a lot of business owners that I rarely, rarely I’ve, I’ve just recently had an experience with one jerk boss very nice person, but a real jerk to work for. And. People don’t wanna work for that. I don’t wanna work for a jerk boss. I don’t want my team to work for a jerk. Me. I don’t wanna be a jerk, right? Like I don’t want them to have to work for a jerk. Nobody wants to show up and be abused to be mistreated. And especially good people. If you’re terrible at your job or milk in the system, maybe you don’t care as much ’cause you’re like, eh, whatever. But like good, talented people, they wanna be treated well.
Jennifer Dawn: And I would imagine that as a leader. You’re gonna see that in your retention rates just in your overall, the quality of work, the efficiency of your team. I would imagine that you’re gonna see that in so many different places of people who are happy and love the people they’re working for versus the jerk bosses.
Michelle Johnston: You are absolutely right Jennifer. And what we’re finding is when we’re surveying top leaders, what are your goals right now? And they are to attract. And to retain the best talent we can and in order to attract and retain the best talent, it all starts with leadership. People leave because of bad bosses, so you’ve gotta look at your leaders first and foremost, and make sure that they’re representing the culture that you want for the organization and embracing this seismic shift in leadership.
Michelle Johnston: And if they’re not you at the top, you have to make that tough call. And I’ve been on. Literally Zoom calls where we had to make that tough decision because that particular leader is not representing the culture and the values that they want the organization to have. And guess what? That one bad apple spreads. It’s so contagious, and then all of a sudden you’re not attracting, you’re not retaining, and as you said, a happy, productive workforce, which is the name of your podcast if you. Actually feel like you’re showing up. You can be authentic, you can be yourself. You’re in the right role that plays to your strengths. You enjoy working for the company and your leader, then you’re absolutely gonna be more productive. You’re gonna be more satisfied. You’re gonna stay at the company longer. You’re gonna put in the longer hours. But that whole quiet quitting was just people saying I need a paycheck. But man, I don’t like the people that I’m surrounded with and I don’t believe in the mission of the company.
Case Study: The Unconventional KPI Driving Massive Growth at Kind Bars
Michelle Johnston: One of the best examples that I saw that I wrote about in the seismic shift in leadership was Juan Martin, who was the go global president of Kind Bars. And so I’m sure most of your listeners have had a kind bar and and they’re delicious. And when I was interviewing him, but it really had nothing to do with the bars. It had to do with the kindness. Because he felt that the kind organization, in order for you to work there, you had to be and demonstrate that you were a kind human. So a lot of their metrics had to do with kindness and not just how many kind bars they sold. It’s organizations like that that they didn’t experience. Any consequences from the great resignation. They didn’t have people who were quietly quitting because they had created a culture where you’re actually evaluated whether you’re nice to your teammates and whether people are happy and productive, which means that they are more motivated and ultimately they sell more kind bars.
Michelle Johnston: One of the best questions that I asked Juan, he was going to get, get his annual performance appraisal right after my interview with him and Mars Candy. Owned kind bars. They bought kind bars from the founder, Daniel Lubetsky. So I said, Juan, I don’t wanna keep you you need to go and prepare for your annual performance review. He said, no, no, no, I’m, I’m good. I said how many bars did you sell? He said, Michel, because he’s from the Southeast Spain. He said, it is not the number of bars that I sold. I said, what is it? He said, it’s the acts of kindness. I said, what were your goals? He said, 450 million acts of kindness their organization wanted to represent. I said, how do you measure that? He said, we found that if we encourage each other, not only internal to the organization, but externally to other humans on the planet, if we do one act of kindness, there’s a multiplier effect and it. It’s three times every one act. So they calculated that if they did it right with the number of people in their organization through the Butterfly Effect, that they could actually influence 450 million acts of kindness.
Jennifer Dawn: That gives me chills. Wouldn’t it? Imagine a world where all businesses measured their performance by acts of kindness. What kind of an impact that could have? Oh my gosh, so powerful.
Diagnostic: Is a Culture of Fear Silently Killing Your Team’s Innovation?
Jennifer Dawn: Talk to me a little bit though, Michelle, how. First of all, how do you recognize if you’re a jerk boss? Because I know there’s some jerk bosses out there who think they’re not jerks, who think they’re justified, and how they act and how they treat their people, and how they dump their garbage on everybody and how they handle all their own, all their baggage and whatever. And talk to us a little bit about what are some, some, let’s say some red flags. If you are serious about making sure for your business, ’cause I know I got a lot of business owners listening here and you’re like, Hey, I wanna make sure that I’m not a jerk boss. What are some things that we should be looking for that could be red flags that uhoh, I might be having some jerk boss behavior.
Michelle Johnston: Great question, Jennifer, and I just want the listeners to know too is even though I’m on a mission to get rid of jerk bosses, I have great empathy for jerk bosses because typically they act that way because that’s how their boss acted or that’s how their basketball coach acted, or that’s how their. Parent acted. And so to them, leadership looks like that and, and they wanna be successful. So they’re emulating what that they, how they’ve been mentored or trained. So there’s that. This entire seismic shift in leadership involves unlearning those old habits.
Michelle Johnston: As far as the red flags, the indications, if, if you’re on this call right now on this podcast, and you’re thinking, oh gosh, I’m scared. Ask yourself if you’ve created a culture of fear, because that’s the number one sign. If people are truly scared of getting caught making a mistake, they’re likely not gonna take a risk or ask a question that they think you might think is stupid. And then they’re typically, that leads to not being innovative, which doesn’t drive revenue.
Michelle Johnston: So the culture of fear is what I would see. That would be the first sign when I would talk with people where there was a jerk boss that they had to report to. They would tell me that they would. Stay up all night, not able to sleep when they had a team meeting with this boss because he or she would call you out and find a cell, a cell in an Excel spreadsheet that you got wrong, and he would play the blame game and he would shame you. And so the employees ended up with mental health is issues not being able to sleep, gaining weight, eating too much. The fear of of failure, and then they became competitive with each other because jerk bosses would typically pit one against the other. So it wouldn’t be a collaborative, a culture of connection where we all are rooting and going in the same direction. It would be are you gonna get promoted? ’cause he said, only one of us can get promoted. Or she said this. And so that is what a culture of fear does in an organization. It, it absolutely stunts innovation, and then it creates back fighting and competitiveness against each other. And so if you have any of those signs at all, then you might wanna think, gosh, am I inadvertently creating this culture of fear?
3 Actionable Strategies to Cultivate a High-Trust, High-Performance Culture
Michelle Johnston: The goal is, and the **seismic shift in leadership** is connection. So the goal is to lead by and, and, and creating a culture of connection and seeing your people as full humans, leaning in with care and compassion. Opening up and getting to know your people’s stories, modeling the way yourself as if you make a mistake. Admit it. It. Don’t pretend that you have all the right answers. Show them that you care about their development. Show them that you care about them as people show appreciation and gratitude. So it’s a very different leadership style that I’m advocating. That’s the, the culture of connection versus the culture of fear.
Jennifer Dawn: Yeah. Oh, it makes so much sense. I had worked with a jerk boss not that long ago, and it literally took me some time to like pinpoint like, what’s really going on here? Because it didn’t matter how much time or effort that you put into a project when you showed up. He was going to find the one thing you did wrong. Like it, it just, the one thing you did wrong and just guaranteed. And then it was always like the bar would move. It’s oh, I know I said this, but now, oh, what you really need to do is this, this, and this. And so the bar’s always moving. You’re never getting any appreciation for. All the time and effort you’re putting in, and then you’re only getting criticized and shamed. And it was interesting to me to watch because as I worked with the employees in this company, people would just shut down, just completely shut down and even go so far as to lie. Say, oh yeah, I did that, and they didn’t actually do it. Get out of meetings, but just, it was interesting to watch just almost emotionally, how people would shut completely down when they were just constantly criticized instead of being like, Hey, people make mistakes because look, we’re dealing with human beings. Human beings make mistakes. Do I wanna eliminate as many mistakes as possible? Yes, of course. But like even the AI tools, the robots have a disclaimer on all of ’em that says, Hey, AI makes mistakes. It’s if the robot can make a mistake and you’re expecting the human not to, I think you’re really setting yourself up for some big disappointment here.
Michelle Johnston: Gosh. I love that analogy, Jennifer. That is so true. And yes, of course as a leader, you don’t wanna make mistakes. However you. You wanna show up fully human and, and I remember one of the leaders that I coach, Pete November, he’s the CEO of Ochsner Health, our biggest employer in the state of Louisiana. And he, when he became CEO, really wanted to change the culture and he wanted to empower the people to take risks and to innovate. So in order to do that, he went on the road and gave these big presentations, these big town halls. And his first story he would tell is when he made a $25 million mistake. Yeah, because he wanted he’s I really hope that you don’t emulate me, but I’m here to tell you, while at Ochsner I made a $25 million mistake. The only way we recovered from that is because then we innovated based on that mistake, because we all felt like, okay, we. We could take risks and we’re not gonna get fired. And so it gave us permission to, to think differently and outside of the box. So they not only recovered from that mistake, but they actually excelled. And so I, that’s what I’m talking about as a leader is just, showing up fully human and sharing some of those stories and saying, we gotta move faster, we gotta think differently. We’ve gotta disrupt.
Michelle Johnston: Even when I think about connection, I just finished my first book, my second book, and it’s called The Seismic Shift in You, and it’s gonna be published in November and, and it’s talking about the necessary shifts in order to lead from a connection lens. Even like we have to shift our meeting. So if you’re a leader who just shows up on a Zoom call and goes to the the agenda ba-ba-ba-ba and it’s transactional, you’re not going to get creativity. At all. And at the very end, if you say, are there any questions? And nobody asks any questions, that’s a sure tell sign. So even shifting our meetings to one of conversation to one of connection because connection drives creativity. And so I’m trying to get leaders to go from we don’t want that transactional directive, just tell people what to do. I’m trying to get leaders to say, have conversations with your people. That’s what’s gonna drive results. This **seismic shift in leadership** is about dialogue, not monologue.
Jennifer Dawn: I believe that so much. One of the things we do for my company and then we all also coach our clients on is team meetings. We always start with wins. For more ideas on effective team management, you can check out other articles on our company blog.
Michelle Johnston: Yes.
Jennifer Dawn: And it’s a simple thing. It’s such a simple thing, but I learn so much about my people and what they’re going through and what’s happening in their lives. Just with that simple little 62nd share a win. Of what’s going on with you and it’s just a simple thing, but it just helps build connection and everybody just, you can just see it’s like a big love fest whenever we start our meetings with all of our wins. And while that business side of me is ah, we have so much business that we have to get to, but like starting with connection, starting with let’s all be real and let’s connect together before we get to the business. It’s like such a game changer in our meetings and it’s such a simple thing to do.
Michelle Johnston: Thank you so much for sharing that. You are absolutely right Jen. Just, that’s what I advocated at the beginning of every meeting, whether it’s in person or Zoom. Just do a check-in and whether it’s gratitude, you show gratitude, you share wins, you share On a scale of one to 10, how you feeling right now? What, tell me just one thing that you enjoyed about your Easter weekend. Just something to, to show that I care about you and then you, and then you can go through the agenda. Absolutely. So connection really from a leadership perspective should be a little bit more structured. In every quarter, get together with your team if you’re, if you’re not in person, and, and really dive in at a deeper level and share your stories. Have they ever heard about your story and how you grew up? And ask their stories. So we’re not saying it’s, it’s now all about self-disclosure and you’re talking about personal stuff all day. No, no, no. We’ve got hard results and goals, right? And measures that we need to reach. But we just wanna make sure we begin those meetings by, by, by wins and appreciation, and that’s how you create a culture of connection, what you’re doing, Jennifer, thank you.
Jennifer Dawn: Oh, I love that so much. One other easy one I’ll share because I know just about everybody can do this, is we have a Slack channel. And it’s called wins. And it’s just an easy little thing, but people will share their wins. And Easter, Julia on my team, she just posted a picture of her with all her kids and their little bunny ears, and it’s just the cutest thing ever. And it was just a great thing that I wouldn’t norm normally see. And everybody in the company gets to see it and participate. So guys, if you have Slack, it’s a, almost free thing. We have the paid version, but. It’s such an easy, simple thing, and the more that you post in that channel, the more everybody else does and just, it’s just a great way, again, to just really stay connected as a team, even though we’re a hundred percent virtual.
Michelle Johnston: That is a great, I love that suggestion, and thank you for sharing, Jennifer. Something like that. And, and part of the **seismic shift in leadership** is 10 years ago you weren’t supposed to talk about your families. And you show up as a professional and you pre, you pretend that none of that world, your world exists, and then you leave the office and then you can be your real self. Now you have to be your total self and, and see your people as moms and sisters and whatever wives, and just by encouraging them to share those pictures of, their kids with the Easter bunny ears. I love that. Thank you. That is exactly, we can’t go back to the days where. It just doesn’t work like that where you have to be your professional self. We’ve gotta be our full selves.
Executive Presence: Understanding Your Amplified Impact on Company Morale and KPIs
Jennifer Dawn: I love that. Okay, Michelle, so before we run Outta time did, what are some other quick ways that you would suggest that as leaders we can build connection with ourselves, with our team, with within our organizations?
Michelle Johnston: Yeah. So the first thing you have to recognize as a leader is it’s, it’s requires tremendous energy to show up as the best version of yourself because you as a leader, your whisper is a shout. Everything you say is amplified. Everything that you do, people are looking at, is Jennifer in a bad mood today? Is she in a good mood today? Is business going well? Is business going well? And they’re trying to figure that out just with your nonverbals. So connection with self is understanding that responsibility and showing up on a Zoom call and making sure that you do check-ins. Have breakout rooms so that they can have conversations and then come back. You’ve gotta be very intentional with connection and you have to build it into your day. So share your story. Have one of your team meetings where we’re just gonna share stories of, of our leadership journey. Where did you begin? What company? How did you get here? These are questions that people really don’t go deep with, and the deeper we go in a structured environment, in a team environment, and the more we know about that other poor person, the more we’re gonna trust, the safer we’re gonna feel. The faster we go, the more satisfied we are and the better results we get. So just being intentional with how you show up as a leader and intentional with creating moments for your people to connect.
Final Thoughts and How to Connect
Jennifer Dawn: Oh, I love that so much. This is a topic I could talk to you about all day. Plus I just love you and I could talk to you all day.
Michelle Johnston: Aw. Thank you Jennifer. Aw, thank you so much. I do love this conversation. I’m just so grateful that you have all these examples to support all what, what I’m seeing is if you intentionally embed time for connection, I. With your people, you will get the results that you need. If you don’t, and say that you don’t have enough time, you are not gonna achieve the results. You’re gonna lose people or they’re not gonna be engaged, and, and it’s just not gonna be an environment that, that you’re proud of and it’s not gonna be the leadership style that you’re proud of. And so we all want to enjoy how we show up and the companies that we work for.
Jennifer Dawn: Yeah, I agree so much and it’s such an important topic today, and even with all the things going on out in our crazy world, I just think it’s even more important for us to show up as real authentic leaders in our companies because we can have an impact despite all the craziness that might be going out outside of, outside of us. Michelle, wonderful. Can you please before we run out of time, share. Where can people find you? Where can they go to buy your books? And congratulations on the second book. I think you were working on it when we were on the cruise.
Michelle Johnston: I was, I finished it. Yes. We’re launching it in in London in November. Marshall Goldsmith and I have written this book, the Seismic Shift in You. Until that is launched, the seismic shift in leadership can be found all over bookstores. And please visit my website. I have a free connection assessment, and that’s on michellekjohnston.com and sign up for what’s gonna be my launch letter. I’d love for you to be a part of my book design exploration process, and I’d love to hear from you. So thank you to all of your listeners. Jennifer, thank you to you for hosting this wonderful podcast.
Jennifer Dawn: Oh, thank you so much for being here today. You guys, we will put all of Michelle’s informations in the show note as well. Please go grab the book. As you can tell, she really knows her stuff and it’s a very, very important topic. Thank you Michelle, for being here with me today.
Michelle Johnston: Thank you, Jennifer. Thank you all for tuning in. Bye now.
Jennifer Dawn: Alright, that’s it everybody get out there and have a happy, productive day y’all. Bye.
